Evolution vs. Creationism

[Mike]

Mostly just a question I keep coming back to when I sit and wonder about life and existence. I can't seem to reason out an evolutionary purpose for the human conscience. First I thought maybe we need it to help protect certain things in our environment that are crucial to our survival such as ourselves, plants, animal, etc., but then I wondered why would I feel guilty if I stole my neighbor's property? Wouldn't I be helping myself? My survival? Then I reasoned that it must be a product of our learned behavior, that we were raised with certain beliefs. But that still leaves a big hole in this idea. Why would we still have a conscience if it could be swayed by outside influence that would hurt us materialistically? This has recently changed my agnosticism to a slight belief in a god. These are all my own ideas I promise. And my family is religious and I did go to church when I was younger, but I'm not here defending the Biblical God, I just want to know what others think about my idea.

[Dateeno]

I beleive that life is supported on the single nature of survivle of the fittest.

Alot of adverts or beleivers say our natural instinct is to protect...

However our real natural instinct is to survive... not protect.

I beleive we do need to protect the enviroment.... otherwise eventually we will end up extinct.

but the way our common humans live, we depend on machines... meaning we MUST keep killing the enviroment to survive, but at the same time we will die by killing the enviroment.

if we have no machines, no computers, no hospitals, no more production... we die... if we have machines... No enviroment... Global warming.... Oxygen etc... we die..

I personaly beleive that we are given life to explore and discover while in the existance of others.

I dont quite understand your theory but i agree with some bits.

Sorry but i dont beleive in god or any relegion or carma or supersticion (Can't spell sorry)

But this is just my oppinion and i cannot and will not enforce my oppinion upon others... and my purpose is not to change anyones mind, just to put my oppinion into consideration of others.

[C'mon]

Hmmmmm I have never tried to rationalize conscience before...interesting. Perhaps a learned behavior? This may explain why some of us seem to have a stonger conscience than others. Your theory that it may be a God-given device (if I understood you) is interesting...and possible. Why not? I was raised in a strong Christian environment and although I believe in God I do not go to church or necessarily believe in religion. I have been told that I have a "big set of scruples" and am very aware of my own conscience. Why is it, I wonder, that some people seem to have no conscience or even an anti-conscience? Could the conscience be classified as an emotion? What evolutionary purpose does any emotion have? I am thinking this as I type, I have never really considered this before. As a sidenote, I do not believe in the whole caveman thing, I do believe that we were created by God. It is why that I don't get.

C'mon

[madworld]

Conscience can be explained fairly well by applying the theory of evolution at the genetic level, as explained best by Richard Dawkins in the selfish gene. Basically this 'survival of the fittest' does not apply at the level of the individual but at the genetic level. It is the fittest genes which survive and replicate, not necessarily the fittest indiviudal. Genes which encourage their 'gene carrying machine' (us!) to assist those near to them will naturally spread throughout the genepool as a community of creatures who work together will be more likely to survive than isolated individuals.

I'm probably not explaining too well as its been a long time since I read anything on this and I'm supposed to be working right now! But I will look it up again later as it is a fascinating subject.

[monkeyonyourback]

What we call conscience is just a basic trait of any social species. The amount we care about a particular individual in our society is dependant upon how close to us they are. Not necessarily in a physical sense but as an example we generally care more for those in our own family than those who just happen to live in the same country as us, and we care more for those who share our nationality than those who dont. Anyone who doesnt believe that just take a look at the daily mail!

[Dateeno]

That is a good point.

But say your on holiday and you saw a 5 year old bleeding to death that you never met before.... your telling me you wouldnt feel sorry or anything just because you dont know him/her? i think you would, and so your concience must span deeper than the people we know

[monkeyonyourback]

[quote="Dateeno"]That is a good point.

But say your on holiday and you saw a 5 year old bleeding to death that you never met before.... your telling me you wouldnt feel sorry or anything just because you dont know him/her? i think you would, and so your concience must span deeper than the people we know[/quote]

I agree, you would feel sorry for them. But if it was your 5 year old son bleeding to death you would feel a whole lot more than just sorry for him... Those who are closest to us matter the most, to put it somewhat sentimentally

[Dateeno]

Yes your right, but thats just because you get attached to the person.

Obviously not for everyone but if you saw someone you hate bleeding to death you might think differently, but you know this person so what is the difference? Its because you have to Like or admire/Love etc... the person. And liking someone is your own preference, so if you only care for the people you love etc, then it cant be a concience it is your own preference and you can choose who you care for?

although its not like you can choose who you can love... it just happens i guess


I've always been under the impression that your Concience is what makes you feel bad or sorry for something that you have done to an unknown person.

For example if i was to Mug somebody in town that i didnt know, when i got home i felt bad, that would be my concience, because we do not know the result of my action and we feel bad about it, where as if i was to mug a friend of mine and i knew the result i "MAY" not feel so bad depending on the effect on my so called friend.

[monkeyonyourback]

Its not purely down to that though. As an example look back to any major disaster that occurred in a foreign country, the tsunami a few years ago is a case in point. All the news programmes (in England) devoted more time to the relatively small number of british dead than to the rest of the casualties put together. Why is this? Because we feel more closely connected to the people we share a nationality with than those we dont. Because generally speaking our fellow countrymen have more in common with us genetically than people from a different nation.

[damostat]

Okay, completely personally and with no real argumentative side, I really cannot be bothered with believing in a god. What is my obligation to do so? That I'll go to hell? Bullshit. Created by the catholic church to scare everyone to join mass and give them MONEY. Creation vs evolution? Here's where I start to get complicated okay? Just bare with me here...I may get technical...who cares? Who really cares if we were created or we evolved? Humans? Please, we're all just rats anyway. Rats with opposable thumbs and a slightly higher intelligence. I despise this argument as it has no right whatsoever within public schools. It is a RELIGIOUS study no matter how you try to put it. You all know this is the reason the world is fucked up in the first place right? Relgion? Think about it. Muslim. Christianity. Both of which deciding to have a war against eachother at the least opportune moment. Now. Everyone thinking of Iraq right? Never would have started if christian pride had been at all involved. But I digress. This has been a rant from a 14 year old, people. If I have the common sense to come up with an original opinion, why can't you?

[devilsadvocate]

hahaha Oh man thats funny. Religion causes war is an original opinion is it? well done on coming up with that one all by yourself. Adding 'this has been a rant from a 14 year old' was hardly necessary, I could have gathered that much for myself. Seriously, coming up with an original, well thought out and intelligent opinion on something is alot harder than you think. If you take the time to look around, talk to people and read a bit about the world you will find that just about every opinion or thought you ever have on any subject, ever, someone else has already come up with. True originality is very very rare.

[damostat]

hahaha Oh man thats funny. Religion causes war is an original opinion is it? well done on coming up with that one all by yourself. Adding 'this has been a rant from a 14 year old' was hardly necessary, I could have gathered that much for myself. Seriously, coming up with an original, well thought out and intelligent opinion on something is alot harder than you think. If you take the time to look around, talk to people and read a bit about the world you will find that just about every opinion or thought you ever have on any subject, ever, someone else has already come up with. True originality is very very rare.

That is a fair point but so long as you believe it's original you can't go wrong. Following suit with everyone else is either a waste of time or just plain stupid. Just make your own idea about the universe. So what if someone has already thought of it? You don't know this. You believe you are your own person and that nobody has come up with this idea. This means no war and no stupid arguments over who should rule the world. Even if you find someone with your idea, at least then you have someone to talk to about it and share it, yet still keep it independent. See my logic?

[devilsadvocate]

I see your point however you seemed to be implying that you had come up with this amazing idea that nobody else had ever considered when in actual fact its pretty bog-standard thinking. We are just animals, God doesnt exist, religions cause problems. All true but nothing original. Yes its good to come up with these thoughts yourself and not just believe it because someone else has told you, so congratulations for that but that doesnt make it original.

[damostat]

I see your point however you seemed to be implying that you had come up with this amazing idea that nobody else had ever considered when in actual fact its pretty bog-standard thinking. We are just animals, God doesnt exist, religions cause problems. All true but nothing original. Yes its good to come up with these thoughts yourself and not just believe it because someone else has told you, so congratulations for that but that doesnt make it original.

True. But you see, do I really care? We're on the same side here matey. Correcting a technicality just makes you look like an asshole.

[C'mon]

What is your definition of conscience? Isn't it our "little voice" that keeps us from doing wrong? For those of us that have one anyway. The way a few of you are talking about conscience doesn't seem like conscience to me...the kid bleeding scenario...is that conscience? To care or have concern for the injured child is conscience? I agree that the concern would be relative to our relationship to the child. Although a bleeding child is a very strong image and hopefully stirs concern in more of us than not. I'm just not sure that's conscience. What is guilt?

In response to the other conversation that is taking place here; I agree that religion is bad. It has to be...they are manmade to satisfy the greed of men. Religion has very little to do with God in my opinion. Religions are the spirtual political parties in my mind. As I've said before, I do believe in God but think religions are not of God.